Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat [PT-263943]

[RTGraham]

Originally Posted by JingleDjango

I suggest you open a new case of your own. I'll report back if i see any action on my open case. So far not so much as an email to confirm an open ticket.

Got it. Done. Thanks again.

[bolooki]

please keep us in the loop on what they say. Especially concerning LFOtool- I use this all the time.

I personally like to freeze the track I'm using it on when I like it so nothing can change, but I want to know an exact way to deal with the delay issue. I feel like these issues creep in and only become noticeable when something is drastically off...however we might be dealing with the sum of small delay issues all along and not know it. That is annoying to think about.

Even if PT can't self adjust, it'd be nice if there was any indication that something is off. (similar to how it reports tasks are still being handled or a file is missing)

[RTGraham]

Originally Posted by bolooki

please keep us in the loop on what they say. Especially concerning LFOtool- I use this all the time.

I personally like to freeze the track I'm using it on when I like it so nothing can change, but I want to know an exact way to deal with the delay issue. I feel like these issues creep in and only become noticeable when something is drastically off...however we might be dealing with the sum of small delay issues all along and not know it. That is annoying to think about.

Even if PT can't self adjust, it'd be nice if there was any indication that something is off. (similar to how it reports tasks are still being handled or a file is missing)

Cool, will do. At the moment its status is still "case in queue."

The possibility that audio timing is changing in subtle ways that we have no specific control over - which seems pretty likely from what I've finally tested on this so far - is the major big-picture issue here. Yeah, it's mildly inconvenient not to be able to have "pumper" or "sidechain" plugins respond accurately, but we can dial in the timing shift by ear so that it sounds good and then freeze or commit... but the unpredictability is a major, major problem.
As I noted in one of the earlier posts in this thread, there's huge potential for phase issues, and we had it happen to us at one point (keep in mind that this particular PT problem goes back at least a few years). We had mixed the first posthumous release for a prominent artist, and we were using multiple LFOTool instances, and we were asked to do a recall to "dirty up" one of the signal paths because we had made it too pristine compared to the rough mix.
So we put some saturation on that path, and of course whatever we used slightly changed the session's delay compensation topology and subtly altered the LFOTool timing - but not enough to specifically hear as a *timing* difference.
And since this was a fully in-the-box mix, and we were also touring and had to do the recall in a different listening environment from where we first mixed it, we chalked up any other apparent sonic differences to changes in monitoring and psychoacoustics. We thought we heard less low end, but had no reason to believe it would have changed.
When we got the master back there was NO bottom on the downbeats because of the phase cancellation, magnified by the mastering process. We had to chase down what had happened and re-shift all of the LFOTool instances by ear and splice multiple masters together for the release.
And we were just fortunate that we noticed it at all and had a chance to fix it. So there are real-world ramifications beyond just "oh, it's an inconvenience and there are workarounds, so deal with it."

[RTGraham]

Heard back on the support case - just a request for more information about what Pro Tools version(s) I've tested this on. But at least I know the submission system worked.

[XJENSEN]

Originally Posted by RTGraham

Heard back on the support case - just a request for more information about what Pro Tools version(s) I've tested this on. But at least I know the submission system worked.

I'll save you some work. Please refer to Case Number 03918877 submitted on 4/4/2020. They have been aware of the issue for 3 months.

***

Dear support,

I'm having problems with time based plugins that rely on synchronisation with the MIDI clock. Examples are the AIR Filter Gate, Soundtoys Crystallizer, and many more.

The problem is that once delay compensation is being applied anywhere, the effect's audio and MIDI streams become desynced and the effect no longer properly operates.

I have been in contact with e.g. Soundtoys already, and they say it's an issue in Pro Tools unfortunately. I'm also in contact with Celemony, because Melodyne is also displaying synchronisation issues, which are possibly related. It appears that the MIDI clock signal is improperly delay compensated regarding the plugin slot of the synchronised effect.

Can you please have a look at this? The only workaround I have right now is to Commit tracks up to a certain slot and then work from there with the time based effect starting on the first slot of the committed track. But it's a very cumbersome and uncreative way of working.

***

I provided them with a session file and last reply of 6/19/2020 is that the case is currently 'under review'.
I asked them what 'under review' really meant, but never got a response.

[JingleDjango]

Quite a frustrating state of affairs there. My case is still in queue but I won't be holding my breath.

[RTGraham]

Originally Posted by XJENSEN

I'll save you some work. Please refer to Case Number 03918877 submitted on 4/4/2020. They have been aware of the issue for 3 months.

Thanks for the heads-up - and thanks so much for chiming in on this.
I'll update my own case with a reference to your case number so that they know it's related.

Incidentally, in my own testing so far it looks like the issue is triggered when delay compensation is happening either prior to the signal path in question, or parallel to the signal path in question, but not *after* it.
For example, putting a Maxim on the Master Fader for the main outs doesn't throw a track or aux's Filter Gate out of sync, nor does even putting a Maxim on the same track or aux but in a later insert - but putting a Maxim *before* the Filter Gate throws it all off.

[JingleDjango]

Any movement on your case, RTGraham? I opened mine June 29 and its status is still 'Case in Queue'.

[JingleDjango]

I noticed that engaging LFOTool on my sub-groups (folders in my case) nullifies the track compensation value of the aux, throwing off the timing of everything feeding that bus. I uploaded a short video to demonstrate:

https://youtu.be/z_4ZnhjyAQs

RTGraham, have you observed the same behaviour in your setup? How can we conclude that this is a DAW malfunction or an error by 3rd party developers?

I paid $40 for an ASC in an attempt to call attention to this problem but despite my best efforts I have yet to make contact with a Pro Tools support specialist. In the meantime I'm losing money and client trust.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by JingleDjango

I noticed that engaging LFOTool on my sub-groups (folders in my case) nullifies the track compensation value of the aux, throwing off the timing of everything feeding that bus. I uploaded a short video to demonstrate:

https://youtu.be/z_4ZnhjyAQs

RTGraham, have you observed the same behaviour in your setup? How can we conclude that this is a DAW malfunction or an error by 3rd party developers?

I paid $40 for an ASC in an effort to call attention to this problem but despite my best efforts I have yet to make contact with a Pro Tools support specialist. In the meantime I'm losing money and client trust.

If your Avid plugins and most 3rd party plugins work alright, my first guess would be faulty 3rd party plugin. But by all means ask support from both